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Hey Canadians:
I just heard about two Canadian friends of a friend who were driving into the US
the border agents demanded they unlock their phones; the agents searched the phones, found anti-Trump stuff on one ...
... then confiscated that phone and neither person was allowed into the US
These folks weren't activists or anything -- the search doesn't appear to have been triggered by that
so, govern yourselves accordingly
@RoyBrander@urbanists.socialIt's awkward when such triggering stories don't come with names or any other specifics.
yep I hear ya
but I'm not including those specifics at my friend's request, to prevent the friends from being further targeted
alas, this is where we are right now
How about "which state"?
CBC today has a story of two musician sisters being harassed at length by Ohio police, and the Ohio police calling the complaint 'hate mongering'.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6694117
I'm just wondering if we can start mapping which US States have serving MAGA cops actively promoting their politics.
alas, my friend doesn't want any identifying info out there
personally I'd regard every state as suspect -- the border guards are federalized and thus not responsive to the relative merits of any given state's local governance
i havae to think this was the border guard's personal choice, and highly illegal.
but, the US is not a place of law and order, and th federal government, nor the political parties can be trusted, on any level, concerning anything.
IANAL, but my understanding is that it is not illegal for border guards to demand access to devices of non-citizens, and they also claim the right to do it to US citizens. (The latter is contested).
@rwg @gaian @clive @RoyBrander
Sound point regarding physical access, although I suspect the legality of compelling someone to unlock their device with a passcode may be up for debate.
For anyone anticipating such an event, I believe GrapheneOS has a "duress" feature (where entering an assigned "duress" pin code to the device wipes it), and - although I've not tried it - there are apps that do something similar.
https://f-droid.org/packages/me.lucky.duress/
*edited to add: being logged in as a guest user with a token set of contacts and messages and whatnot is probably the other easy win, although if they're smart enough to notice it may make them grumpy. Some companies advise travellers to fly to specific countries with burner devices, and the company agent gives you a new device when you land. This is usually for the sort of country that will install snooping software on your device when given access (or worse). It is unlikely to become one of those situations.
@doboprobodyne @rwg @gaian @clive @RoyBrander
I guess if you don't have a convincing phone they could send you home...
@johkra @rwg @gaian @clive @RoyBrander
Good point, better than their finding something they disagree with ideologically.
Also, my first thought when I read your comment was that you might hand them one of these. And I would have a lot of time for that idea too :D
@doboprobodyne @rwg @gaian @clive @RoyBrander
... On the other hand I always wondered: In the form they always asked if you planned a terrorist attack.
...well...that is the Definition of a stupid question
@doboprobodyne @rwg @gaian @clive @RoyBrander
Be careful about wiping your phone in front of law enforcement. That could easily be interpreted as obstruction of an investigation or destruction of evidence.
@bruce @doboprobodyne @rwg @gaian @clive @RoyBrander
Get a burner phone if you need to cross the border and leave your regular phone home.
You can log into what you need in a browser after entry and wipe the history before beginning your trip home.
@rwg @gaian @clive @RoyBrander Regarding non citizens, this is correct as far as I know: and it's consistent with guidance on Canadian government websites regarding entry to the US, and with "EFF's Pocket Guide To Protecting Your Data At The US Border", the latter of which is literally a one-pager but very informative.
From https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/united-states
«U.S. border agents are entitled to search your electronic devices, such as your phones, computers or tablets, when you are entering the United States. They don’t need to provide a reason when requesting a password to open your device.
If you refuse, they may seize your device. The border agent could also delay your travel or deny entry if you are not a U.S. citizen.»
(and migod yes that story is grotesque)
it should be assumed that all cops are bastards, always, everywhere.
@burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive cops are not assholes here in Finland. They're highly respected in the society. Then again, they have a high school education plus 3-4 years training in the police academy. Maybe that makes a difference.
@funambolo @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive What? It's literally just four days since an ylikomisario (chief inspector/captain) of Helsinki police force went on air telling we should just let fascists in Finnish libraries because I dunno, freedoms?
They protect their own, simple as that.
@jarizleifr @funambolo @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive Finnish cops also have disappeared activists for years, not as bad or for as long as their US counterparts now, but for some days at least. "Preventive detentions" and all that jazz. Not to mention other ways they like to make people's lives difficult.
@undefined_variable @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive letme rephrase this: it is highly unlikely that in Finland you get pulled over and then the cops shoot you because they think you the about to pull a gun. Or choke you to death claiming they did not hear you say "I can't breathe".
@undefined_variable @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive that said: if you're an activist the police can handcuff you and drag you away. They're upholding the law, which is not to say the law is necessarily fair or just. I checked some polls from the past and in at least one (IS, 2017) policeman was chosen as the most respected job here in Finland. Couldn't open the SK poll as it was behind a paywall.
@funambolo @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive
Well, they rank pretty high in the US too, in that respect, so I guess they're ok there too?
https://news.gallup.com/poll/647303/confidence-institutions-mostly-flat-police.aspx
In Finland they might not shoot you on sight, but you might die in the holding cell. Those deaths are alarmingly high. Also remember KURI1? Bet you a buck that hasn't been the only official project like that, and if that was done officially, you can imagine what the police does unofficially. The police has repeatedly been caught having connections and even giving information to far-right groups. The police is blatantly partial in how they choose to uphold the law, not to mention how they use extrajudicial means to punish people they deem have offended them.
Again, granted, nowhere near the level off ass-fuckery that the US law enforcement gets into, but the Finnish police is as far from the image they portray as Finland itself is. Or do you really believe those "Finland is the happiest country in the world" polls too, and take them to mean that there's no issues in the Finnish society, everyone's taken care of and everything's sunshine and police dog puppies?
@undefined_variable @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive
I would be genuinely interested in reading articles that cover the things you mentioned. There have definitely been cases where, for example, indivual members of the police have co-operated with criminals for monetary gain. But is this sort of conduct widespread or systemic? Has this thing even been researched? I don't really know.
@undefined_variable @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive
I think the US gallup is interesting. It is widely known that in certain US (e.g. black) neighbourhoods cops are loathed upon. The high confidence in police is probably propped up by white americans who rarely encounter the police and when they do, the encounter is more or less friendly.
I'm sure similar logic applies in Finland as well: immigrants _may_ have a very different views of the police than the white "native" majority.
@undefined_variable @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive
All this said, there is no need to be confrontational. I don't have a fixed opinion on this topic and much prefer "here are some examples of what I'm talking about" instead of hints of naivety.
@funambolo @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive My apologies for a bit snide tone, just that I have personal experience of being a target of harassment by the Finnish police (and mind you, not for doing anything illegal, but for being, legally, involved in activism and organizing), so when someone is like "you can trust the Finnish police", it gets personal to me really fast. And I'm by no means alone here.
I'm not aware of any independent research into the Finnish police, I don't think they'd allow it, to begin with, and I think that kind of research would be nigh impossible to do without co-operation from the police. The culture of silence is strong, but that seems to be breaking now, as shown by the recent case with Taponen. The police themselves release their "police barometers", but I wouldn't put much stock on those.
Here's some individual cases that put together show a clear trend within the Finnish police too.
Several police involved with a far-right group, even supplying them with police information: https://yle.fi/a/74-20081776
Helsinki police doing racial profiling: https://yle.fi/a/3-12242143
Helsinki police colluding with the private security services, targeting individual people: https://www.hs.fi/tutkiva/art-2000010813305.html
And of course recently there was the case Taponen: https://yle.fi/a/74-20144649
Unfortunately most cases don't even make it to the news, and are easily dismissed as one-sided when coming from, for example, the activists themselves. But there is a trend there, one just has to be willing to see it.
Edit: forgot to include this reporting on cell deaths: https://yle.fi/aihe/a/20-313292
@undefined_variable @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive
Thanks for the link, I was not aware of this case! Years ago a friend of mine was arrested because he happened to hang around in the vicinity of a demonstration next to Postitalo in Helsinki city center. Also, I once went to report a crime (identity theft) the police immediately accused _me_ of a crime. While this "misunderstanding" was resolved quickly, the mood was pretty icy after that.
@funambolo @jarizleifr @burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive The Finnish police is know in the activism circles for "kettling" people in the demos, that is just surrounding a bunch of people and detaining everyone who happens to be inside the kettle, regardless if they had anything to do with it or not, often also trying to issue fines to those detained for various offenses. Unfortunately this practice and the "preventative detentions" of people are areas that usually don't get reported in the news at all. Not that aspect of it at least, there might be news saying "police detained xx people", but the angle is always that the people somehow deserved it, never questioning the police narrative.
I haven't been active with stuff for some years now, so I don't know how much the police uses those nowadays, but they used to be common place pre-covid with what the police viewed as left-wing demos. Hopefully someone who's active with organizing and f.ex. legal stuff with demos in Finland nowadays can chime in here.
Sorry to hear about your friend's and your experiences, they're not uncommon though.
@burnitdown @RoyBrander @clive
Wouldnt say that for germany. The education and training spans several years.
> US States have serving MAGA cops actively promoting their politics.
All cops vote Republican. https://drydenwire.com/news/behind-the-badge-three-things-cops-never-do/
@RoyBrander @clive
Sorry to say, it's safe to assume "all of them".
stop badgering him for information, asshole.
I understand the frustration at the vagueness of my original post!
i wish I could share more details myself
@clive @gaian @RoyBrander
any news reports on this? These things need to be reported even if only to help document these abuses
N @clive @gaian @RoyBrander@urbanists.social
As a journalist (bio: Contributing writer to New York Times Magazine and Wired.) this looks like the start of a story that should be investigated and reported with adequate protections to the victims. Bad things are happening at the US border, no doubt. But, repeating rumors is counterproductive if/when they are revealed to be false. It discredits the documented stories.
people have a right to decline to publicize the details of their oppression.
which would likely lead to an amplification of the oppression they are facing.
i understand why people would want them to give details, but not everyone is interested in becoming a martyr.
i'm certain these people are telling their closest confidants about this, btw. which actually might cost them some 'fair-weather' friends.
Thank you for not putting words in my mouth @gaian I did (edit: NOT) ask for that. Of course they have that right.
I commented that a professional journalist @clive could use that skill and position to tell or get that story told in a responsible safe manner.
FOAF tales are not helpful. Some will be true. Many will not. Those will be harmful. This is basic media literacy.
@RoyBrander All of them. Just depends on the day. BP on both sides can be dicks if you get the wrong one on the wrong day. Canadian Border patrol put my Bff & I out in the middle of nowhere w/ the next bus not coming for a day at a crossing from Wa St on our way to spend the weekend w/ friends in Calgary. We were 18 but weren’t expecting to have to pay for things on the invite, so we had our round trip bus tickets & only about $40 between us. 30 miles to the closest town at sunset. @clive
@RoyBrander @clive
You should assume that it's all of them. CBP is active in all 50 states, even the ones that have no international borders or seaports. And too many local police are more than happy to march in lockstep with them.
@RoyBrander @clive Canadian here, but I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is "all of them", by which I mean not just "all the states" but also that the default assumption should probably be that all (or, very optimistically, just a majority) of US cops are MAGA.
@RoyBrander @clive US Jurisprudence has established for over half a century that the Right to No Unreasonable Search and Seizure enshrined in the 4th Amendment simply doesn't apply at the Border.
This sort of story is an old one, but it's unfortunately about to ramp up regularly.
@foxxtrot @RoyBrander @clive More importantly, BP doesn't require any reason to deny entry; so posts condemning the president are fair game. I won't be crossing that border again until he's gone...
@foxxtrot @RoyBrander @clive
Or for within 100 miles of any US border.
@RoyBrander @clive It’s also awkward if publishing just a little more endangers someone. Enough of theses stories are about that those details make little difference, unless to actively protect the people involved.